初次到访维思平（WSP）建筑事务所，映入眼帘的是一座低调的灰色四层小楼。与其他知名设计公司将办公室设在CBD写字楼的“主流”选择不同，这一独栋多层办公室经过维思平自身精心设计，外表朴实谦逊，室内呈现大量白色空间，细部体现对使用者的细致关怀，彰显了独特的设计哲学和审美品位。
在一层会议室，记者见到了此次采访对象Knud Rossen。和德国人不苟言笑的刻板印象相反，Knud开朗健谈，言语诙谐。针对建筑设计、质量维护、城市化等不同话题，透过他在建筑和房地产领域近四十年的工作经历，在敏捷的思索后，道出了直率而深刻的洞见。德国注册建筑师，英国注册建筑师。1982年毕业于德国布朗斯瓦格大学建筑系1982-1990曾工作于伦敦多家著名建筑师事务所。1990年任欧洲著名的西门子公司房地产与建筑设计部负责人，1993年成立MRA建筑师事务所。1996年成为WSP建筑设计的合伙人。Knud Rossen曾任教于著名的英国伦敦AA建筑学院，英国南岸工艺学校，同时为南京大学建筑系客座教授。
建筑畅言网：维思平近年完成了一系列大型总部建筑项目，如何使这些互联网企业选择并信任你们？Archcy: WSP has completed several large-scale headquarter projects in recent years. What made these huge Internet companies choose and trust you?KR：信任需要从点滴慢慢积累，从小到大。随着总部设计项目的增多、经验的积累以及公司知名度的提高，WSP逐渐取得了大型企业的信任，加之我们在德国有同类办公项目设计经验可借鉴，比如我们通常会在设计初期分析客户公司结构、员工工作方式以及外界对客户公司的认知等，把分析结果融汇到方案设计中。这些设计过程有足够的说服力，让客户确信我们真正理解其要求，甚至能超越他们的期待，给出超乎想象的解决方案，这也是建筑师能达到的最佳境界。
建筑、景观与城市设计是紧密相连的，WSP旨在提供一体化解决方案，这也源自对建筑师角色的深刻理解。建筑应当是一个有机整体，如同生命一样运行工作。我们应当投入到建筑从始至终的整个开发过程。我一直有个习惯，会在建筑建成若干年后重访，看看人们的使用情况。在看到使用者理解我们的设计目的时，我也会感到无比喜悦。KR：Of course, you start your way up from small to bigger companies. With growing experiences of working on headquarter projects, we gained the trust of bigger companies. Also, getting these projects are sometimes the results of participating in competitions. Besides, we have done similar projects before in Germany. The process of how to approach the specific requirements on headquarter buildings has certain methodology behind that, which you can apply in different companies. The beginning always is analysis of the structure of the company, of how the people work, how they want to be seen by themselves, by their staff, by the outside. These will all be summarized in the new building. Also, due to our process of approaching design tasks, we convince the clients that we have understood their requirements. Or even better, we can surprise the client with solutions that he had not even thought about. That is the best that an architect can do.Architecture, landscape and urban design are totally belonging together. We aim at delivering an integrated design, which comes from our classic understanding of the role of the architect. It ought to achieve an organism building which works and functions as a life. To that end, you have to be part of the developing the birth of the building as much as from the beginning to the end. What I always like to do is to revisit a building a few years later to see what people have done with it. The most enjoyable moment is when you see that they have understood what we wanted to achieve. 建筑畅言网：维思平的设计理念是什么？有哪些赋有经典魅力的设计作品？Archcy: Can you summarize your design philosophy and name the projects with timeless value?KR：我们的设计不是为了营造风格。公司成立的20年间，我们拥有了许多经典项目和难忘的记忆，人们也许会从外观上判断一座建筑是维思平的作品，但这不是因为我们运用了某种风格，而是出于特定的逻辑内涵。
其中一个项目是南京长发中心, 由两栋高150 米的办公姊妹双塔，以及南侧两栋135 米高的塔式公寓所组成。我们在2003年做了方案设计，并和业主建立了良好的合作关系。建筑师需要做的绝非仅仅是项目设计，更要和业主沟通，相互激发灵感。
大型项目中，我个人欣赏的是深圳金地梅陇镇。项目面积达到了一个可步行的小城市的规模，在高密度下赋予人们开放的空间、绿化、购物设施，并实现了地面无车化，为地下停车场引入自然采光。尽管项目规模巨大，却兼顾了细部，在规模大、工期短的情况下，实现了高质量的工程效果，成为大规模建筑施工的范例。KR：Our design is not about a style. People from outside might think that this is probably a WSP building. It is not necessarily because of a style that been applied, but a certain logic. We are simple thinking people. During the 20 years since WSP was established, some remarkable projects are linked with exciting memories.Nanjing Changfa Center (CFC) is one of those projects, two twin towers with residential buildings behind. It was around 2003, when we did the design and had wonderful relation to our client. It is not just architects doing a project, but we also have to communicate with the client, inspiring each other.Among the big projects I like, there is Shenzhen Gemdale Meilong Town. It resolved two problems, in which one is that its scale is more than one million square meters, amounting to the scale of a small city, a walkable city. Although with high density, it offers everyone with open spaces, green spaces, shopping facilities and no cars above ground, offering underground car parks with daylight. Besides this urban aspect, even though it was a massive project, we developed the details for the building, which allowed to be executed with good quality, but simple enough to allow that in the big amount, in such a short time. This was one of the examples of mass production of buildings.
建筑畅言网：维思平完成的项目类型丰富多样，包括安徽黄山休宁双龙小学这个公益建筑和北京多处住宅项目。你们有没有接手项目的标准？Archcy: The types of your projects are diversified and varied, including Xiuning Shuanglong Primary School in Anhui and residential buildings in suburban area of Beijing. Is there a standard to take over projects?
▲ 安徽黄山休宁双龙小学/维思平(WSP)建筑设计KR: 在资源和可能性相对有限时，反而可能产生最好的建筑。反之，当有无限可能时，建筑也许会很糟糕。大家可以观察一下乡村地区没有建筑师的建筑，它们都由当地人建造，仅仅使用砖块、石头、木材、瓦片等作为建材。但这些建筑可以很出色，比例适宜，逻辑合理。KR: Architecture can be even best when it works with limited resources and possibilities. On the contrary, when you have endless possibilities, you often end up with the most horrible architecture. If you look at simple architecture without architects in the countryside of locals, limited to just bricks, rocks, timber beams, tiles or even leaves. This always results in good architecture with good proportion and logical decisions.
Archcy: What is your view of building quality management?
KR: 有些人会缺少这样一种意识——在建筑全生命周期中，维护成本要高于施工建造成本。我们需要有清晰的计划，了解如何实施维护，确保每年的成本收支，维持现有的建筑品质，并运用现代科技在几十年的建筑使用周期内进行更新改造。有时会有这样一种现象：在建筑完工后，如果无人打理，就会看上去很老旧。这和原建筑质量没有关系，而是因为没人真正在意。每一座建筑都需要设立管理体系，明确项目权属。究其原因，其一，中国建筑项目数量太多。一旦建成，人们便不会再放很多心思在这个项目上，而是继续向前，投入到下个项目中。其次是工程款支付问题，欧洲施工方在项目竣工时不能得到所有款项，5-6%的尾款会保留五年左右。只有届时工程质量没问题，施工方才能得到这笔钱。从总体看，德国建筑交付工期和中国无异。施工工期也类似，唯一差别是欧洲会使用预制元件，因此施工速度有时会更快。至于规划许可，常规项目需要3到6个月，而区域规划则需要更长时间。KR：People sometimes are not aware that besides the money on constructing one building, it costs more during the life cycle in sustaining the building. You need clear program, how you do the maintenance, get and spend the money every year to maintain the existing quality, upgrade to more modern technologies over a life cycle of buildings.In many cases in China, when a project is being built, everyone responsible just disappears, resulting that the building looks like 10 years old after merely one year. This is not about the original quality of one building, but no one cares about the building. So, you need management system for each building, also particular ownership of projects. There might be two reasons, one is that there are so many building projects in China. When projects are finished, people can't think back. Instead, they always think forward, shifting to the next project. The construction payment is another issue. In Europe, builders don't get all the money when a project is finished. 5% to 6% of the money is held back for maybe 5 years. After those 5 years, if the project quality is OK, the balance payment will be wired.Generally speaking, the whole process of building project delivery in Germany does not take shorter or longer than in China. The construction is more or less the same time. Only the difference is that in Europe we use pre-fabricated elements in constructing buildings. Thus, it could even be faster occasionally. In achieving planning permission, an ordinary project might take 3 to 6 months; for zoning plan, it surely takes longer.
建筑畅言网：今年是包豪斯建校100周年。如何理解包豪斯对现代建筑的影响？Archcy: 2019 marks the centenary of Bauhaus school. How do you understand its influence on modern architecture?KR：包豪斯对现代建筑做出了巨大贡献，其出现前后的建筑存在明显反差。包豪斯建筑的极简主义风格是对早前时期过度装饰的回应。包豪斯及现代建筑并没有否认建筑装饰，只是提出了与过去有别的主张。包豪斯不认为建筑是所有艺术创作的王者，创建出将所有内容汇总的概念，包括人们在建筑中如何使用、居住、舞蹈、利用空间等等。KR：Bauhaus made a huge contribution to modern architecture. Architecture before and after Bauhaus era showed great contrast. The minimalist appearance of Bauhaus architecture was the result of reaction to the over-decorated buildings in the previous era. Bauhaus and modern architecture did not deny decoration on buildings. Instead, it made statement of being different to the past. In the Bauhaus, architecture was not the way considered to be the crown of all the forms of design or creation. There was the concept of bringing all the things together, including the way architecture is being used, by living in it, by dancing in it, by making use etc. 宜居城市应具备适宜的尺度，提供吸引人的交通替代方式
建筑畅言网：中国城市化存在哪些挑战？怎样营造更宜居的城市环境？Archcy: What are the challenges of urbanism in China? How to achieve livable urban environment?
KR：我们不应该过多构想理想解决方案，而应当从现实层面出发，尽可能去纠正或证明一些做法。重要的是解决城市的尺度问题，优化交通系统，赋予人们更优质的交通方式，使其不必面对拥堵。一定有更安全、快捷、清洁、可靠的公共交通方式。我听过一句调侃——中国人忙于进入汽车时代，而欧洲人正回归骑自行车。自行车是城市重要的个人交通工具。欧洲正对过多汽车车道和停车场的现状展开辩论，人们正为自行车争取更多空间。不过北京实在太大，住在南部大兴的人想去东北部的望京，很难骑自行车抵达。问题的关键是创造吸引人的交通替代方式。KR：We should not have too many visions of ideal solutions. Instead, we should start in a realistic level and rectify, prove certain things as much as possible. The most important thing is to tackle the size of the city, to organize the transportation system in a better way, which allows people to have better choice of transportation, rather than being in a traffic jam. There must be a safe, fast, clean, reliable public transportation system.I know the joke that the Chinese going to cars while Europeans going back to bicycles. Bicycles can be a very important element in the individual transportation within cities. There is a battle of debating why cars get so much spaces in Europe, that people are demanding more spaces for bicycles. But unfortunately, it is very hard for a man living in Daxing to go to Wangjing by bicycle as Beijing is so big. The key is to create attractive alternatives of transportation.下一个行业市场？可能是改造项目、度假住宅及闲置购物中心再利用
建筑畅言网：您正在做什么项目？对今后的建筑设计市场，有何预测？Archcy: What are your current works? How do you predict the future market of architecture design?KR：我在德国同时做房地产开发和建筑设计。多数是19世纪住宅改造，翻新到现代标准，并可能带有少量扩建工程。目前正在做一项柏林住宅开发，另一个项目是莱比锡19世纪住宅翻新。工厂是我最喜欢的项目类型，因为必须要理解工厂工作、生产流程，同技术人员交流。我很享受分析问题、寻找优化方案的过程。
经济波动一直存在。我们身边许多建筑都是在过去20多年中快速建成的。但这些建筑周边很多处于未建状态，如果将镜头拉近，会发现北京有许多待建的项目。当然，小规模地块不可能建设宏伟的高层建筑，我们今后数代人的任务就是聚焦微观的区域。从现实看，度假住宅可能是下一个未来市场。这一业态已经在城市中初见规模，并将延伸到农村地区。另一个市场或许是闲置的购物中心。将未充分利用的建筑进行活化改造将成为一项城市任务。KR：I am now doing real estate and architecture in Germany. Most are existing residential buildings from 19th century, which are to be upgraded to modern standards, slightly extended if possible. My current project is a housing development in Berlin. Another is an upgrading residential project from 19th century in Leipzig.My favorite activity is factories because when you're doing factories, you need to understand what they do, how the production work flow is, building relation with technical people. I like analyzing that, finding better solutions. Economy is always going up and down. A lot of buildings around us have been built quickly in the last 20 years or so. The spaces around them seem unfinished. If we zoom into small areas of Beijing, there are so many works that still needs to be done. But on a smaller scale, people cannot draw an amazing high-rise building. To zoom in is the works of the next 10 generations. In reality, holiday homes are probably a future market. It is already happening in cities and are moving to the countryside. Another market might be useless shopping centers. Enabling the under used buildings to be used in a better way is an urban task.
建筑畅言网：您是怎样成为建筑师的？对于求职的建筑师，您会首先问哪个问题？Archcy: How do you become an architect? What is the foremost question you’d ask an architect candidate?KR：我小时候没有想当建筑师的想法，但我一直喜欢到处玩，比如挖洞，在树上搭房子。我会问的一个重要问题是“你为什么学建筑？”人们的回答可能是“我爸爸是建筑师，所以我学建筑”。其他问题包括“为了当建筑师，做了哪些事？”以及“有没有旅行并参观各地的建筑？”我蛮看重实习生在建筑工地上的工作经验。工地经验很重要，欧洲建筑师更可能有工地实习的经历。在工地上，建筑师能看到图纸在现实中的细节呈现，了解到工人建造的过程。如果有更多建筑师曾在工地工作，建筑细部或许会处理得更好。KR：I've never had the vision of becoming an architect as a child, even though I was always playing around, digging holes, building houses in trees.One important question is always that "why have you studied architecture?" People would probably say that “I studied it because my father is an architect”. And “what have you done to be an architect?";"Have you traveled and visited architecture?”I've always thought that an architect intern should have been worked on a construction site. It is an important experience and European architects more often do that. Because they can see the details that they've drawn, how they built this. If more architects have worked in construction site, some of the details would be better perhaps.
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